beginner's thoughts about this game

    This is my first round playing this game and I just decided to post some thoughts about it.


    First thing first, in a game with limited building space, the best way to maximize profit is to use space efficiently. I notice that industries are not equal. I don't mean stuff like car dealers are better than a textile shop, that's pretty obvious. What I mean is that even among the lv 0 shops (furniture, DIY, textile, toy, cafe, grocery, book), their profit per building space (which I will call pps) isn't equal either.


    so to calculate pps
    pps = ((norm price for 1 item*1.5)-production cost)/the combine space of all components
    space = 1/production per building (at lv 0)
    *note* shop space is not included in this equation


    For example, the best lv 0 product a bookshop can produce is newspaper, standing at 15252 pps, while the best level 0 product a furniture shop can produce is a wooden table, standing at 18938 pps.


    Also I notice there are 'trap products' with exceptionally low pps as well. For example, Christmas trees have 5084 pps, and motor oil have 5922 pps.


    Here are the list of average PPS for the lv 0 shops
    Textile = 23151
    DIY = 21990
    Furniture = 20451
    Bookstore = 17790
    Toyshop = 17632
    Grocery = 10564
    Cafe = 8788


    Textile
    pros = crocodile bags, low natural resource dependency
    cons = too much other low pps items
    although it does have the highest average pps, most of it comes from crocodile bags, standing at 1354500 pps. After getting to 35 R&D it is best to minimize down to just a few products (to maintain shop SV) and build as many crocodile bags as you can. Although there is the problem that car dealer is at 34 R&D, which mean this huge pps boost really isn't unique for textile manufacturers.


    DIY
    pros = uses wide range of resources, all around high pps
    cons = none
    This shop is perhaps the easiest to maintain and best overall. PPS is generally high except for Christmas trees and lumbers (which you can skip entirely).


    Furniture
    pros = easy to maintain, all around high pps
    cons = uses too much lumber
    This shop is limited by the amount of lumbers you have, making it not possible to just fill your map with them.


    Bookstore
    pros = easy to maintain, average pps, low competition
    cons = use too much wood
    This shop suffers the same problem as furniture, except with a lower pps. But at least you can be sure that the demand will remain relatively high.


    Toy shop
    pros = average pps, uses wide range of resources
    cons = hard to maintain, moderate/high competition
    I am not sure why so many people like this shop. It's pps is average, and the production numbers doesn't come together at all.


    Grocery and Cafe
    pros = hard to maintain, low pps
    If you are looking for a challenge, then this is the way to go. Otherwise it's best to avoid them entirely.


    As far as shops goes, it's upgrade is simply not worth it at a low R&D level. To calculate shop efficiency level


    shop pps = (ratio*((1000*upgrade lv)+lv 0 upkeep of shop))-((ratio+1)*lv 0 upkeep of shop)
    ratio = 1/((1.05^upgrade lv)-1))
    note* rounding is not included in this equation, as this will take into consideration of individual items.


    So for example, a lv 0 furniture shop at 0 R&D will have a 18000 pps compare to a lv 1 furniture shop, or 13901 pps compare to a lv 10 furniture shop. This is to say that, even excluding the huge upgrade cost, if you stay at level 0 and just build 1 more shop when needed, this shop is technically giving you a 18000 pps. Of course this ratio changes according to the cost of the shop, which is affected by what it is and the current R&D.


    As far as QL goes, unless your intention is to set yourself up for next round, it's not worth the cost and effort. It simply cost too much to be pay back within the round that it is being utilized.


    I will probably update this as I gather more information about this game.

    Zitat von CATcorp LTD

    As far as QL goes, unless your intention is to set yourself up for next round, it's not worth the cost and effort. It simply cost too much to be pay back within the round that it is being utilized.


    Yeah, QL is for future rounds, and is essential. Unless recent changes affect strategy, must make LMC to be competitive. Anybody disagree? So must research to level 45, and probably to level 50 (citycars) to maintain car dealers.


    You need path from research level 0 to level 50. Research QL to 100 for every product along path. For instance, everybody still do ice box, right? Or is some other path from level 8 to level 26 (fridge)?

    Jik,
    I've been avoiding icebox to get from low RL to RL 26. I just set up a nice textile store and toy store and leave it at that. At low ql levels I spent too much time below RL 26 and the price of icebox crashes. Tricycles, and shoes make good money and don't crash like ice box.


    That said, I think I will do icebox next round. I'll have icebox, steel, and iron ore up to ql 100 so I think I'll be able to get through it fast enough.


    Catcorp,
    I'd suggest that average pps for a shop is a good place to start your calculations but not a good place to finish them. You don't have to produce everything in a store. In fact I think you'll find that you get your best return if you don't. That's why I like furniture, cafe, toys, and textiles.


    You'll also find that people do counterintuitive things in the persuit of high score. While tricycles don't make the best money they do make good score. Wooden furniture on the other hand makes very good money (w/o picture frames) but it just trashes your vendor score, and hence your high score.


    -Dave
    One-stroke (slow)
    No-knots (speed)

    Actually I already did the calculation for all the items in the game. I know beginner shop becomes obsolete after a certain R&D. The problem is that calculation like this alone does not work later on because of the supply/demand ratio. Has this been some kind of single player game it's pretty obvious to just generate a map with lots of irons and spam icebox/fridge until Car Dealer, but since it isn't I figure I wait and watch the SuDe to see how a round normally evolves. If profit is the only factor, it almost seem like it's all about going from beginner shop to car dealer/electric shop/jewelry. All the other shops seem to be way behind.


    As far as cafe goes, most items yields little to no return, with cacao and chocolate standing borderline at 16000 ish pps. Unless there are some bonus scores involve, I am not sure the purpose of this shop at all.


    Is there anywhere that provides detailed information on how scores are calculated?

    Cat,


    I do like your calculations, but I think some more number crunching will yield more clarity. You calculated avg pps for the shops producing all products, but not including the square that the shop takes up. Let's look at household store at RL 8 with level 0 buildings because it is widely seen as the gold standard for making money at that RL. It has 3 products: glass, cutlery, and icebox. You only need to produce one of these items to keep the store happy.


    let's say you have 1 stores, lvl 0, sw=150 so you can sell 5 icebox. Requires 1 HI, 1 Steelmill, 1 ore mine.
    Income = 109,820, expenses = 46,775, net = 63,045
    if you include the shop you get a pps = 15,761


    if you make cutlery too, you sell 14, requres 2 HI, 2 steel mills, 2 precious metals (10 spaces total)
    income = 261,790, expenses = 116,025, net = 145,765
    pps = 14,577


    I'll compare that to cafe at RL 0 where you only make icecream and cacao. need 3 FI, 3 cattle ranches (7 spc)
    income = 159,750, expenses = 42,865, net = 116,885
    pps = 16,697


    That is why I like cafe. Now, these numbers only go so far. Nobody keeps their buildings at lvl 0, as soon as you apply ql you can get different results, and cafe doesn't make good score. But, early in the game if you want to make good money, cafe does well.


    Best Wishes,
    Dave
    One-Stroke (slow)
    No-Knots (speed)

    Well I do have a way to calculate max pps of shop, which is not nearly as simple as the other formulas. One problem is that I am not sure how season should be counted in for sell value. It seems like you still sell the max amount in all season even if it saids otherwise. A joke article can sell all 30 every month, just that season affects demand. If this is wrong let me know so I can calculate average over the season instead of just using the biggest number.


    This is the original pps formula
    pps = ((norm price for 1 item*1.5)-production cost)/the combine space of all components
    space = 1/production per building (at lv 0)
    You will have to figure out pps for all items first (spreadsheet helps)


    So before we add a shop, we have to run this formula on all the items
    Initial value = (((norm price for 1 item*1.5)-production cost)-(shop cost/sell amount))/(the combine space of all components+(1/sell amount)
    *This pretty much just means the pps for the given item w/shop if we only produce this item.


    After finding the one with the largest number for the given R&D


    Max PPS = ((Max initial value*shop sell amount*combine space of all components w/shop for item 1)+(pps of item 2*shop sell amount*combine space of all component for item 2)+.......)/(shop sell amount*combine space of all components w/shop for item 1)+(shop sell amount*combine space of all component for item 2)+.......)


    And you just kinna have to include items from the highest pps one at a time until a point where the formula number is higher than the next items pps.


    So for example, lv 7 bookstore you only need books as adding other stuff lowers PPS (then of course there are shop value, so you still need to produce the next best thing, which will be newspaper)


    I will most likely edit my first post once I include shop in the PPS equation. So far it seems like a R&D 10 book store is better than a furniture from 0 - 37, is it will be interesting to see how everything turns out.


    Concerning this
    "I'll compare that to cafe at RL 0 where you only make icecream and cacao. need 3 FI, 3 cattle ranches (7 spc)
    income = 159,750, expenses = 42,865, net = 116,885
    pps = 16,697"


    Yea I just spotted a silly mistake on my spread. I was using "luxurious car bodies" instead of "milk" on the ice cream equation (that's what you get with copy/pasting). With icecream standing at 24117.6 pps cafe does become one of the better shop until you upgrade R&D (which hurts this shop a lot).

    Alright maybe I am missing something here but are you (One-Stroke) going to destroy the cafe's after you get to a certain research lvl in the round and if so I do not see the cost of destroying the building and also the cost of storage in your calculations...doesn't this make a difference in the long term? May be not. I am however a die-hard cafe owner and while this is only my second round I have found that I can manage it quite efficiently and also make a nice profit while increasing both QL and RL. I rarely am above 1.5-2.0% ROE but it is enough to sustain growth and also the 12-18 hour breaks I am forced to take while a full time student. Some day I will have the time for the speed round but not this year. BTW...(((((First Post Here))))) and I love this game....I am sooooo addicted! :D

    Catfood,


    Yeah, I just now blew up my cafe line and my toyshop line in the slow game (RL 26). I see a couple patterns in this game.


    1. Exponential growth with an insanely high exponent when you are buying new buildings to fill 100 squares.
    2. Exponential growth when upgrading building levels with a much lower exponent.
    3. Then the climb up the RL tree. Most of the products on this climb do little to improve your earnings with a few exceptions. I'll leave my favorites as a mystery, but Jik has posted that he likes icebox, telephone, fridge, and a good portion of the auto industry. In the low RL's it's hard to profit 5M/wu. In the high RL's it's far easier to profit 15M/wu. So, yeah, I don't mind destroying my cafes. Not in the least.


    I'm glad you're enjoying the game. Best wishes.

    The game does not have exponential growth. If it was logaritmal growth, then if you started at 10k profit/turn at beggining, and had 3% each year, till world update 200, 2% from 201 till 500 and 1% after it, then you would have over 400 million profit/turn after world update 1500.


    It seems logaritmal growth.

    Well as I said, it's exponential growth in each zone. BTW, before you have your 100 squares filled the exponent is about 50%/yr!


    Overall there is no named formula I know of that describes the income growth.

    It is not exponential grow. The first building you make, you have the best profit. The second building is second best profit and so on. So as an example, if you have 50k profit in year 1 make another, you would have in this second, 45k so it is 50 + 45 = 95k. If it was exponential, it would have to be increased in more than 50k. Not exponential.
    The research levels too are not exponential, I believe. They give decreasing returns.

    Sry Universo, but each building has the same profit. There is no reduction in profitability for building more buildings. I'll give an example.


    You start with a Toy shop and build tricycles. It costs 2,155,000 to set up. With sufficient quality you'll net a profit of 110,000. So, on the first day you get a 5% return.


    Later you have enough money to build a second toy shop and a second line of tricycles for 2,155,000. You'll profit the same 110,000 off the second set. Now you've invested 4,310,000 and earn 220,000 per wu. Still a 5% return.


    Making twice as much money, you will build your third shop in 1/2 the time. Making an additional 110,000 per wu. By this time you've invested 6,465,000 and profit 330,000 --> 5% hourly return on investment.


    But now you can build the fourth shop in 1/3 the time! ....


    So you see how the rate of return is a constant 5% even as more money is invested into infrastructure. This is the definition of exponential. As your company grows so does the rate of investment and so does the income. It's totaly unstable and we would all make 6E16 if we could just keep up this growth rate for 10 days. Alas, they put the 100 square limit and so ends the early exponential growth.


    The next phase of upgrading buildings is probably not exponential, but really I haven't studied it (nor will I) to see what kind of growth it is. If each level of upgrading took the same amount of time and money is surely would be exponential. But since each subsequent level takes more, it doesn't fit the exponential (or logarithmic) models easily. You would have to do further work to show what it fits.


    And the last growth phase, the RL growth. Well, that doesn't fit any known function easily either. There are points where you make more money, no more money at all, less money, and insanely more money. In the low RL's it's hard to gross 5,000,000/wu. At RL 26 you can get twice that. At RL 39 you can get 25M-40M. By RL 45-50 some people gross 50M/wu. Just look at the newspaper for proof. You'll see Jikco, Stora Enso, and others pulling down huge sums of money every wu. Again, it hasn't been fit to any known function of growth.


    In my previous post I called each of the three sections exponential, and each having a smaller exponent than the last. You noted perhaps correctly that the last two sections are not exponential. It remains to be proven that they follow any other type of recognized function though. Lacking any known function that fits, I've approximated them in my mind as exponential with a smaller exponent. Would it be better to say they are linear? Logarithmic? Maybe. Maybe not.


    In any case I'd say the point is mute. I use the terms that fit best in my mind. If you wish to argue the point further in a meaningful way, you'll have to show some proof.


    Best Wishes

    Well, lets see if we are talking about the same things. An exponential function is a function that works like this:


    1,2,4,8,16,32 etc. Or 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc.


    The following number increases in the same factor as all the others. So, 2/1 = 4/2 = 8/4 = 16/8 etc.


    You can build a set of tricycles at 2155k and it has 110k profit. In 20
    wu you can build another set. So you will have 220k profit and will be
    able to buy another set of tricycles in half the time, in 10 wu. But
    then you will increase your profits by only 50% (330k/220k) and not
    100% as you did when you increased from 220k/110k. If you continue to
    make tricycle sets, you will now make another set in less time, but
    then your increase % will be less again. (6 wu but only 33% increase). Don't you see, that if you
    keep this line, it is a LINEAR increase?




    We can know if the game is exponential or not looking at the Return
    Over Investiment (ROE) statistics at the "Business Review" link. When
    you just make your first moves, it is very high (the trycicle example
    would give 5% in first year), but then as the round develops, this
    number will invariable decrease. Just see it for yourself. Put this
    number in your note pad and record it over the game years.


    Best regards.

    Linear equation f(x) = m*x +b


    Exponential equation f(x) = C^x +b


    In my example f(t) = 1.05^t -1


    f(t) = earnings as a function of time.
    t = time


    My example fits the definition of an exponential function exactly, therefore it is an exponential function.
    QED


    This site has a good explanation of exponential functions if you still don't understand.
    http://www.purplemath.com/modules/expofcns.htm


    <sigh>


    I don't know why I insist on replying to posts that are so devoid of reason.


    Please Universo, read the post carefully. If you still don't understand exponential equations you can ask for help and get educated. But please, please, please don't say it's not exponential again. The world is too full of misinformation and ignorance already.


    Best Wishes

    Maybe you two are talking about different functions.


    Universo seems to see profit as a function of capital invested. If you double your "toy sets", you double your income. linear


    One-Stroke talks about how the income changes as a function of time. Since you need less and less time to increase your profit it can't be linear. If you draw the graph you'll see. the slope changes.


    Just to ease the tension.