Posts by John Smythe

Doubtless you are right. I was just startled at how high it had got and thought maybe I'd overlooked another "high end" product. So that means that someone out there, if they are actually buying those peanuts, must have some really high quality butter output. Much too rich for me, I'm afraid.

In fact my whole economy has gone wobbly now. I'd been trying to play little games with buying too many inputs on the cheap. Worked for a while, but less and less now. Anyone got cans for me at 4950? Hmm, I thought not. Time to...what's the word? Consolidate.

What is going on with peanuts? Unless I'm mistaken, the best product one can make is peanut butter and yet the peanut selling-price on the market as of tonight is almost looking like that for steel. Is there something I'm missing?

Operating cost + Salaries + (Units/wu * Production cost)

To get Units/wu, take what it says you will harvest and divide by 12, keeping some decimal places for a more accurate calculation (once you are upgrading the plants). This is really the same as DDD says.

Of course these costs are only a fraction of the story. The factors of production are labor, capital and land, and only labor is accounted for above. What sort of return do you need on a building that costs 280.000 and only produces 1 unit cotton per wu? And land? Land is beyond price in IT since you can't buy any more.

So a manufacturer making fabric in order to produce furry toys, for example, should probably be prepared to pay as much as 16,445 per unit of cotton (although I personally would prefer to pay rather less than that). That would give your cotton farmer a return of about 59% on his capital investment in the farm, roughly the same as for making tools. It also explains why fabric eventually becomes too valuable to sell directly to the market.

The one nice thing about cotton goods is that they tend not to become over-supplied, so a relatively new player without high quality levels won't have to worry about crashing prices of tools, tricycles, ice boxes and the like.

Just wanted to add my congratulations.

I see now at last why you had so many shops quite early on, at least by my standards. You weren't trying to trade many different products as such. You built them to sell all those ice boxes!

It must take quite a lot of household stores. And of course you guys at the front seem to have wrecked the ice box market for people arriving at that level later. Ice boxes are not exactly easy to sell right now.

It's also clear to me now that your secret lies in the speed at which you climb levels, boosted by quality. It will not be easy for others to follow the same path more slowly, especially if everyone tries to go the same route.

Where do you go from here? I presume luxury and then city cars?

Well, Jik and you implied I must do more trading so I...overdid it perhaps? Take a look at the Best Vendor score today! :] But of course this may simply imply frantic activity more than brains. I've had much more time the past few weeks, since that move I mentioned. Closer to work-from-home and a shorter commute when I do need to.

I've still managed to make some pretty bad mistakes and, like I predicted, company size and ROI simply can't keep up with the best. What impresses me is how Jik keeps it all in balance. Best vendor and best manufacturer are balanced and ROI is excellent. That is the key, it seems.

Right now, I'm buying everything I can, making what I can't buy (and which still gives a reasonable return) and, finally, ignoring what gives poor return and which I cannot even buy. But I'm going to be hit hard when the steel price rockets up in the closing stages...

Well, Morgie and Jik, what can I say? I believe the word is...

Woot!

Definitely a much better round for me. Thank you! Very hard work though, maintaining all those shops. Not sure if I can keep it up and my falling ROI worries me too. This means I'll gradually again slide behind those more experienced in exploiting their higher quality levels.

Still it was fun to appear on a front page, even if only for a few days.

One small comment here. For new players on low product research levels, selling steel, or even iron ore, is usually a very good deal here towards the end of the round. Better, in fact, than any product you can make on your own. Eg, why sell tricycles for 5.4K when you can sell the steel for 10K+ or even the iron ore for 7K?

However, there has in fact been a sharp drop in steel prices and also iron ore prices over just the last few days. I am myself caught with several steel sales for 10.9 to 11.2K going unbought. This may be some effect of the approaching end of the round, or something to do with the vacation season in Europe, or maybe just that more players have been gearing up all the raw materials production they possibly can. I simply don't know. It is certainly not the case that the game is dying.

However, D_T_S, what Replikant says is otherwise entirely correct of course. For new players it is more advisable to set up a full production chain first, all the way from materials to manufacturing to selling the finished product. All of us who've managed to survive a round do that first. A stable steady income, even if speculatively not the most profitable, is the best way to start out.

Edit: PS, I managed to sell that steel over the weekend, but new sales are definitely down a bit in price.

Yes, these two are not so far apart, really. Especially since some of us have gotten into the habit of knocking a few points off the formula anyway, even in some cases where supply does not obviously exceed demand. Seems to help that one extra point of sales.

Anyhow a really big thanks to Jik and Quaser for posting here. I'd been feeling more than a bit lonesome before, and Kahla too, I think.

As for me, I've just moved house and, living in an "emerging country" like I do (polite phrase, that), I lost my landline altogether for a whole week. A close thing since I was losing 5 mil per wu when I came back online (about 5K steel in excess of warehouse limit, hardly any cafe or grocery sales, 25 factories without resources...). Horrible!

I'm now busy investigating the extra shops Jik recommended--starting with textiles since I already have a grocery shop. It seemed at first very strange to me: buying products for more than you can sell them at? But I think it works out like this (for Kahla's benefit):

1. We are rewarded for manufacturing goods in our own factories and selling them in our own shops (manufacturer score).

2, We are rewarded for buying completed products from other players and selling them in our shops (vendor score).

3. We are not rewarded for selling completed products to other players! At least not directly.

4. This means that under normal circumstances nobody would want to place finished goods on market (unless in emergencies caused by overproduction)

5. One way for players themselves to encourage this is through accepting goods on the market that are priced higher than the selling price. This is especially so in the case of products that take a lot of land to produce.

6. This can be done so long as the prices are not so excessive that the resulting fall in ROI is not offset by the boost in vendor points.

7. Is this how it works? If so it's a little strange but not totally implausible. Each player is then acting a little like countries do when they subsidise key sectors of the economy. Think of agriculture in the EU, for example.

Comments? =)

I see... Any idea how much higher the steel price might go? Anyhow, I don't mind so much because with my "emerging market" (or less politely, "third world") economy, the best deal I can currently get is upgrading my 8 iron ore mines (already level 7) and converting my can -making plants into plain steelworks. So you see, the higher the steel price the more I start figuring myself for that guy Mittal :]

The only issue hovering on the horizon is how many warehouses I might need since I'm already currently making 100 steel/wu for "export". The more I look at things, the more I realize how much flexibility is the key. What on earth am I doing making steel, then manufacturing the steel into cans, then buying coffee for the cans, then manufacturing cans of coffee, then adding my precious higher-ql milk to the coffee and manufacturing white coffee, and then selling the white coffee for about 9000 when I can sell the steel itself for upwards of 10000?!

Kahla, I'm sure you're way ahead of me on research. Currently I've "patents" of only 710.938.000, though admittedly almost all of that is research into quality.

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Originally posted by dktc
- Making cars, which is a huge disappointment at the finance department.

Really? Do tell me more, please. I thought making cars was supposed to be Nirvana, Utopia, Shangrila, The Promised Land, Heaven...have I left any out?

Are there problems?

You'll both be perhaps a little shocked to hear I'm still on RL 4. Decided to stay "down there" and work only on quality of raw materials and such. I've kept one research lab going throughout, occasionally two, but only when working on low quality levels. A bit of a yo-yo, that.

It's also due to the fact that I've not the time to spend that I might have had. I hadn't looked at the Highscores in a while and was mildly surprised to find Afroco is still hovering somewhere in the first 200 or so on some scores, probably because though I haven't advanced much, I also haven't demolished much.

Anyhow, congrats so far Kahla. =)

Don't you sometimes wish steel cans could be melted down into steel?

So we're definitely into that new phase of the game with car manufacturing under way (for some people, anyhow) and the price of iron and steel rocketing. In a bizarre twist compared to the early game, I can earn more for steel sold to the market than I can get making cans and then coffee with it.

Anyhow, I'm still here, taking it slow with pretty brief logons and working on quality of low RL items when I can afford it. How is everyone else doing?

Certainly the very cheap iron ore and steel is drying up, and often there is little to no iron ore at all. This has been going on for days and may indicate the game is moving into a new phase, though I'm not experienced enough to say. Remember, when we came in at the end of last round, steel was terrifically expensive, yet at the beginning of this one, people were pricing it at below cost. As usual, only Dktc is likely to know.

Dktc, I do hope you will stay around, even as an "emeritus" guide to newcomers.

Frankly, I wouldn't still be here if not for you and also your FAQ. I might well have found the game unintelligible.

And Kahla you can add "developing world" in my case, when it comes to internet connectivity. (Though to be fair, South Africa itself isn't so bad considering what I've heard about elsewhere in the region).

Well, I'm just popping by to say I'm still here. As always you were right, Dktc. I couldn't keep the second research lab going, especially after I started keeping larger inventories. So things go a little slowly now.

Thanks again, both.

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Originally posted by dktc
As for the selling price in shop, I heard that it had happened that the same product with higher QL could sell for less than that of QL 0. So, buying QL goods from market isn't always gonna give you more profit.

That's not very encouraging...

Kahla, yes, I too abandoned the furniture shop. Frankly, the cafes do very well still, though I'm by no means unhappy with my toyshops. I've furry pets and dolls going too, now. Have 10 level-3 cotton farms feeding 1 level 4 textile plant, and I buy the occasional very tiny amount of cotton at market. I've got tricycles going too still, though I supply the shops more thinly than before, and rely somewhat on cheap imported steel. Rely on that for the coffee cans too, else the markup isn't so hot.[*]

Nearly went bankrupt today. Last night I left my purchasing "for later" and there was no "later" till noon today! Ran out of iron, steel, pulp wood and all harbor products while still paying for the two research labs, one of which did nothing for 10 hours. So, my keeping a cash reserve did help, although this is no way to play the game.

*imagines dktc shaking his head sadly*

There it is, there it is... C'est la vie.

[* EDIT: Well the markup looks fine at first glance--it's the return on capital or land that isn't so great, but then you know that. ]

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Originally posted by dktc
Max shop selling price = norm*(1.5+(ql/100))
so... with q73, it would be norm*2.23

The problem is that alot of products are already dropping in prices. The higher the ql, the quicker the price drop. It is not surprising if you can't sell them at max. I can't either.

Oh sure, I know I can't. But what I was trying to figure out was how quality affected the normal price. Surely if....

Max shop selling price for item with quality Q = norm*(1.5+(Q/100))

then...

Normal shop selling price for item with quality Q = norm*(1.0+(Q/100))

?

But this doesn't seem to work. Or at least it means the prices of high quality items can drop below what one determines from that second equation.

I paid a fortune for Q 73 tools and so far I haven't sold one. Aargh!

Thanks, both, for those replies. =) Dktc, you were right about the dangers of starting QL research too early. I did indeed slide backwards at one point. And as for upgrades, I'm following your advice. For example I'm upgrading cotton farms to 30% and keeping the textile plant in sync. Cotton is too difficult to come by and those farms are useless without upgrades. Elsewhere I'm doing things a little differently. I'm upgrading steel mills ahead of the surface mines because I can still buy cheap iron ore, so it varies. Also upgrading some cattle ranches so I can abandon the others for new buildings. Much more to discuss about what I'm doing but I've been too busy doing it.

Now for another newbie question. What does "normal price" mean where quality is involved? Surely for tools, if normal price is 9.575 and one buys quality 73, then the quality-related new normal price should be 1.73 * 9.575 = 16.564? But I don't seem to be able to sell at that price...? Thanks!

A very level-headed approach. Yeah, I'll give the scoring a rest. Right then, now for my next crisis....

How do I spend 20 million?

In fact this is a major crisis for me. I clearly misjudged the rhythm of the simulation. I reached the building limit way way sooner than I expected. (You warned me about that). I've 2 research labs running. I've more proceessing plants and factories than extractive industries, so I battle to buy inputs...sometimes this causes me some stress too. And quite frankly trying to buy and sell wooden stepladders and furniture will soon drive me around the bend.

What to do? Lots of building upgrades, and if so what first? Or else jump more levels?

Things are moving too fast. Heeeelp!

Just to reply in a general way, rather than replying to quotes...

Yes I agree about moving up some levels at least. That's why I chose toys, in fact, and I've just begun making my first furry pets. However, I've also begun quality research for some of the basic materials. I'll soon be at 100 buildings...just keeping a few slots open for petrochemicals for my plastic dolls. I'm keeping about 8 million in the kitty when offline for long in case I stop selling due to price drops. This has happened before.

Since reading what Morgie wrote, though, I'm also running furniture and DIY stores and even a grocery. That's apart from my focus on toy shops and cafes. The furniture and DIY businesses are very painful to run. Purchasing is difficult, they only barely make any money, and sales often drop. I'm keeping going with toys, but only by adding an extra shop (4 total), which spreads out the sales a bit, I also switched one of the toy plants making wooden locos to make furry pets, instead of building a new one.

I then started a small wine business using some of my glass and this helps feed the grocery. Otherwise I just buy eggs, meat and other things from market.

Overall, the cafes do very well, and marbles do better now relative to tricycles which are rather soft in off-season.

Kahla: "But even so, the supply is continuously changing as people drop or take up production of that product." Very true! You can see the difference when our friends from Germany come online! On one occassion I simply stopped selling those wooden ladders. Don't know what happened. Did they all go in and reduce their own prices?

I'm not too worried. I have the money to jump more levels if I need to. But what I meant is, I won't jump too high just for the sake of it. I feel that I should only jump once I have a specific target in mind. For example, I only want to jump to pushcarts when I have mastered "petrochemicals" for plastic dolls, and so on.

Morgie, my company is Afroco. (...I'm from South Africa =) ) Now I don't expect to do well in the highscores, but I'm reasonably pleased to be in the upper 100 for ROI and suchlike. Those are the efficiencies I was concentrating on. However, as you can see, for Best Vendor I'm still down at 2597! I'm sure that's below many who aren't even actively playing. In other words, I incur negative penalties. It is this penalty I don't really understand. So then my overall score is 667.

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Originally posted by Kahla
I haven't found anyplace to see the total number of buildings. But when you click on each building category, the total of that type of building is shown at the top of the list. So it's just a matter of adding those together.

Thank you! I have now found an overall total in the same place on the "All" page. Somehow it never caught my eye.

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Originally posted by KahlaI'll leave the prices question for Dktc or someone else. But at least I can say that I've never had to lower any prices below the norm, even when the product was over 500% on the SuDe.

That's good, since I do take norm prices into account in the tables I made, by way of seeing what the margins are like there. Rather thin, of course.

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Originally posted by KahlaI did take a chance on the furniture industry, just out of curiosity - it's one I didn't try last round. So far, it looks like I -might- break even or make a tiny amount of profit overall. I'll probably be pulling that one down the minute my supplies are sold. Bleh.

I managed OK by finding someone higher up the quality list of sellers who priced the same as those down below, out of frustration perhaps? Don't know that I'll always manage that. Well, I sold furniture and DIY materials bought from the market and kept an eye on the "Best Vendor" ranking to see if it helped. Fact is, it didn't so far. A lot of investment and wasted effort in fact.

Now, time to turn to research issues. I'm in a real quandry. The whole point of choosing Toys was to begin researching iron-ore and steel quality, yet I currently get best value simply by buying the cheapest steel I can--usually quality 0 sold at cost or even below. Hmm.

Likewise, I didn't want to move up product levels until I had accumulated decent quality research to justify it. So, what to do? Research harbor products and milk? Leave steel for later? Research fabric and wood pulp for the furry pets on level 2? Fabric might be quite a good deal if one develops the land intensively. The market isn't exactly flooded with cheap cotton, but then one has to ask why. It seems to need a lot of land.

*scratches head and looks around for Dktc*

It seems possible to sell some furniture, Kahla, if you can buy it cheaply enough and especially if there's a bonus on bought quality levels which you can exploit. I've certainly done so the past day. But the danger is that the price is continuing to drop and I've no idea how far it will drop...

Which leads to my next question. =) I'm still obsessed with prices. Dktc, can you give me further clues here, please? (a) Worst case scenario...how far can shop prices drop if oversupply is really bad and everyone is actively trying to sell in the shops. What is the worst you've seen? And in a more general sense, any idea on average drops for oversupplied industries like DIY or furniture. I really need this to get some sense of the risks I face. Risk is the basis of investment decisions, after all. Thanks!

And now for a really silly newbie question. Where can I see how many buildings I already have? What page?