noon is what i heard from stdok...
what i really want to know is what "updates" would take place? there are talks about new products and rearranging product levels. there are also suggestions concerning some aspects of the game play. Can the IT-team please post the changes that would be make so we could change our strategies if need?
Thanks.
hey, welcome back...
Getting back on your not so simplified version... problem not solved. Due to the way you calculate the tax, each calculation has 12 components. Calculations within 12 wus of each other have one or more overlapping components. When calculations within 12 wus of each other end up in different tax bracket, one or more components would end up being taxed different amount in different wu. That is, for the cash same cash increase, you could be taxed different amount. Make sense? or do I still need to improve my explanation skills? And I stress one more time, the problem is not the change of tax bracket... but the change of tax bracket for the same month (components in the calculation). That is why taking an average is not really logical when you look into the calculation method.
Another point is I don't see the relation of the not so simplified version and the simplified version. You only took into consideration month 12 and month 1 (or month 0?) in the simplified version and did not take an average. Instead, the difference was taxed 5% directly. The two ways of calculation do not match at all. That is why I thought you had changed your proposal.
As a matter of fact, I like darknight's suggestion more because I don't think players would have to pay more unless they sold a ton of event goods and they have a pretty nice monthly profit.
As for companies... they could use whatever system, german, british, american... I don't care. As long as the system makes sense and can accurately reflect the financial results of the companies, it would be fine.
Copper ore is used to make copper wire at RL 9. That is, there is no use for it until you have got to the level. After that, there are plenty of uses.
As a newbie, you could either reset manually (under options page) or wait for a couple of days until we have our round reset.
FYI, you can find product information here:
http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/products.html
and product tree here
http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/downloads.html
Oh... and you could ask questions in chat... the respond would be much qiucker (at least most of the time 
)
Enjoy and good profit. 
Tax = postive?? .... *frowning on HAL's idea* 
But anyway, back to the annual taxation.
First, I want to point out this is not what you suggested in your first post.
Second, as I have stressed multiple times, it is not the change of tax bracket that I have problem with. (I am not going to write anymore on this, see previous posts). If you don't see the problem, then ask yourself why you need to pay different amount of taxes for the same amount of profit. (This is according to you idea proposed in your first post.) It is a conceptual think involving how you calculate your tax, which your first idea is no where near the real world method.
Thirdly, ok... so players may not have cash problems in the beginning of the round with annual taxation. However, do you see how drastic an effect the tax can have on a business if accumulated up to 12 months and being paid at once? But then, again, we are not talking about taxing on profit, are we? So there may not be a problem afterall because we are taxing on cash flow.
Fourthly, a new system is supposed to solve the problem of the old one. I just don't see how it is done here. Same problems would still exist. I hate new systems that would not solve old problems / that will create new ones, which is why I responded to this thread in the first place.
ZitatOriginally posted by subhash
DDD, I am not rebutting your second point, you make sense =D
But it is irrelevant what terms and forms they use, the net effect is the same.
Somehow I agree to that, which is why at the end of my first post, I stressed the problem of the first point.
Although I am not going to spend much time on the second point, I don't think it is about deductibles. It is more about the timing of realizing the costs, especially the costs of sales and production costs.
Moving on, I understand that businesses do move between tax brackets and I don't have a problem with that. However, as I understand from your first post, you are not simply suggesting an annual taxation.
ZitatOriginally posted by subhash
so my idea... on the first of every month, add what you made for the year, and divide it by twelve
The main problem of adding and dividing is that every month (wu) would be taxed for 12 times, each time a tax% of 1/12 of its profit.
For example,
if we are at month 6/10, the tax would be determined by 7~12/9 & 1~6/10 (a 12 month period).
if we are at month 7/10, the tax would be determined by 8~12/9 & 1~7/10 (a 12 month period).
If somehow the tax% of 6/10 and 7/10 end up different, then you pay different taxes for the period 8~12/9 & 1~6/10 (the overlapping period), which contributes the same to the calculation of tax for the two months. It is this part that I have a problem with. (and don't tell me it would not happen ). The fact that the same wu with the same profit could end up being taxed 5% * 1/12 * profit * 4 times + 10% * 1/12 * profit * 8 times (and in alternating sequence) would not make predicting cash flow any easier, not to mention that it does not really make sense.
I hope I have made myself clear this time 
.
You have also mentioned annual taxation in your last post. The problem of annual taxation is that during start-up (that is after round reset or for newbies), players may experience cash problems after taxation. For some businesses (eg. cafe), if you only have the buildings for that business and you got into negative cash, there is a really good chance you would not get back to positive because of the lack of fundings for raw materials. That is why annual taxation would not work well in IT.
hmm...
Regarding my first argument, I don't mean tax breaks that a player would intentionally arrange. I mean that adding up a year and dividing by 12 can still results in taxes falling into different tax brackets in consecutive years. And that would be very illogical because for the same month (same profit), one may need to pay different amount of tax in the following 12 months that it is calculated as a part of the tax. So, to answer you question, there could still be companies being switched between tax brackets, which will lead to more uncertainties, and thus decrease the predictability of one's cash flow.
As for the second point, YES! the balance sheet that is currently generated in the game is not up to accounting standard. It violates one of the basic accounting principles, the matching principle, and thus does not correctly reflect the net income (that is profit or loss) of the company during the accounting period (wu) concerned. The so-called "profit before tax" in the balance sheet is in fact the "net cash flow" (cash in - cash out) during that period. Therefore, we are in fact taxed on our positive cash flow instead of our profit, which is the basis of the problem we have here.
Hi,
This is actually quite good an idea. The "profit from the past 12 months" is calculated already anyway, so why not? Not only would it be fairer to people selling in market, a lot of seasonal products can also be accounted for. However, there do exist a couple of problems.
One, if you calculate it that way, it would still occur that the tax percentage may vary in successive years. Then for the same month, it may get taxed 5% of 1/12 of its profit this time, and next time, 10% of 1/12 of the same profit.
That is, if i get 120 profit for 1/10, 24 for 3/10, and 1200 for 4/10.
On 3/10, I may need to pay 5% of 120/12 as the portion of tax of 1/10.
On 4/10, I may need to pay 10% of 120/12 as the portion of tax of 1/10.
This could create inconsistency and make it all the more difficult to predict cash flow. It is also logically unexplainable why the tax portion would be different for the same month. One may argue this does not happen often. However, it does happen. More often is at the fine line between no tax and have tax instead of 5% or 10%. Until this problem is solved, this method would not work.
Two, the accounting / taxation methods here are not perfect. You can't match costs to revenue (which is the "matching principle" of accounting). So, it does not accurately reflect the performance of your company anyway. In that sense, changing the taxation method does not make it any better.
By no means I am saying that I love the existing tax system, because I don't. I just paid over 1 million for tax in speed one wu and I don't even have half that as profit more than half of the time. However, one may see it as a challenge of revenue management. And as I have said, if problem 1 is not solved, the proposed method would not work logically.
another short update...
Q46: Why would the min price > norm price (or max price < norm price) when forwarding products ( min: 2711 | norm: 2295 | max: 4518 )? Is this a bug?
A46: No, this is not a bug. It happens by design.
It is because the norm price of any products that can be sold in shops are fixed. The min and max prices are calculated from previous successful trades and are flexible. That is why it is not uncommon to see the min > norm. However, you have to be careful if you buy goods that fall in this category because you may not make any money out of them. (Refer to Q19).
The norm of products that can't be sold in shops are the average of their respective min and max. So their norms are also flexible and thus they are always min < norm < max.
... may be continued...
Thx HAL, *hugs&kisses* (not that I would do that in real life :P)
a short continuation...
Q42: Why am I back at the default setting again? / Why do I have 2.5 million again?
A42: You are back to the default setting due to a couple of reasons.
- The most common reason is that while you were gone, your company went bankrupt. When a company went bankrupt, it would be reset automatically. All your possession would be lost (well … except your cash , which was at negative anyway ), including any QL you might have researched.
- Another possible reason is that there was a round reset. See Q36 for this.
- and... what?... oh... you have reset manually? Then why are you asking this question?
Q43: What do I need to do to make (insert a product here)?
A43: You need to have the required research level (RL), and then you need the corresponding raw materials and building(s). You can find those information here; http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/products.html
Q44: How long will this game / round last?
A44: See Q36.
Q45: What does "rtfm" mean?
A45: Due to offensive language, I can't answer you here . If you really want to know, ask HAL in chat . (This was a frequently asked question although I hope that it wouldn't be in the future)
... to be continued... that is if I can think of any other faqs...
back to the serious questions...
Q31: How can I move my goods from one warehouse to another?
A31: To move goods between raw goods whs and product whs, in the warehouse interface under "move /delete", input the amount of goods you want to be moved and click the arrow icon next to it. The export whs only store goods that you offer to market or to other players.
Q32: In which warehouse should I store my goods?
A32: Products you sell in your shops should be stored in the product warehouse while raw materials should be stored in raw goods warehouse. As for the remainings (goods that you sell on market / to other players, or those you don't need / use but just want to tie up some cash with :P) can be put in either one of them. However, it is recommended that you put them in raw goods whs because the storage of the product whs is double that of the raw goods whs for the same goods.
Q33: Is researching RL (product and building research) worth it?
A33: Most players would say yes to that question. It is because the product and building research enable you to produce more (and sometimes more lucrative) products. There are also new industries for you to explore. However, there are also players who don't do RL research (or stop at low level) and do well in the game (in terms of profit margin and cash management). It depends on how aggressive you are and what goal(s) you want to achieve.
Q34: Is researching QL worth it?
A34: This is a controversial topic among players. Some say QL is an essential part of success, while others think that researching QL is not cost efficient and the benefits are exaggerated.
Some advantages:
- You earn more from products with QL. The prices increase norm*(1/100) per QL.
- It is the only element in this game that you can keep for the next round... that is, you can start the next round with better revenue and profit.
- QL products could sell better in shops if sold for the same price.
- QL research could lower tax and even tax percentage because of the cost of the research.
Some disadvantages:
- High costs (see Q22)
- It takes quite a while to research QL (see manual for details).
- You don't necessarily need QL to do well... although it may help.
- Products with QL need raw materials with QL (see manual for details), and thus limit you supplies/purchases of raw materials.
The benefits of QL research depend on your goals and commitment to the game. So, it is your decision whether QL research is worth it.
Q35: I have taken a forward transaction and it didn't go through. Why?
A35: The products have to be placed in your product warehouse 1 wu before they are due, with the required QL and quantity. If any of those four criteria was/were not met, you would be penalized.
Q36: What is "round reset"?
A36: "Round reset" occur every 3 months in real life. Everything you own in the game except QL would be reset back to default. Round resets are at the beginning of February, May, August, and November. Watch for announcements in forum and portal.
Q37: Why are players selling products above max shop selling price in market? Who would buy them?
A37: It is because they think they can sell the products at that price. Some players also put the goods at high price when, for some reasons, they want to store them in the export warehouse temporarily. And then, there are the players who are going bankrupt and other players help them by buying expensive goods. Finally, there are those that don't know or don't bother to check the price.
As for why people would buy those goods, there are several reasons...
- To obtain top-seller highscore.
- There is an event going on in the newspaper (through donating, players get event-manager highscore).
- They have too much spare cash.
- They need to keep their shop worth (sw) up.
- As a move to lower their profit to lower tax % for that wu. (It may or may not save the player cash... it depends, and see taxation details in manual).
- They are helping bankrupt players.
- They don't know the price.
- They are idiots (this is not originated from me ... so don't curse me or beat me up :P)
- and other special reasons...
Q38: What does the graph on top of the "balance" page show?
A38: Your total revenue (turnover) for each of the previous 12 wus.
Q39: What does "patents" means in the balance page?
A39: The money you have spent on research, both RL and QL.
Q40: Why would the mean selling price in SuDe be way high?
A40: Some player(s) put a high price in their shop (something like 999999999). Because it is the "mean" selling price, that high price is also taken into account during the calculation.
Q41: Why would the player(s) want to price that high (99999999)?
A41: A couple of common reasons:
- They don't want to sell that product which they have in their product warehouse. It could be because they have taken forward transactions, they need them for other products but can't fit all into the raw goods warehouse (it happens with semi-finished goods), or they can sell them at a higher price in market than that in shop.
- They don't have the product but want to maintain a high shop worth. By manipulating the price, they manipulate the demand of their shop, and thus manipulate the sw.
... to be continued...
After 23 serious questions and answers, let's take a break. The following are some amusing questions and answers. Most of them are not directly related to the game play, but they are definitely asked frequently ...
Q24: Can you send me some money?
A24: If you can send money, reset and send me 2.5 millions
In chat...
Q25: Is anyone here?
A25: The answer is most often yes, but whether the "someones" are going to answer you... hmm... that is a different question
Q26: Can anyone help?
A26: "We help, where we can"... but it is up to you to help us help you (by reading the manual, the forum, and the Q&A) and we already help you help us help you by providing them :P.
Q27: What language are you guys speaking?
A27: Usually German. This is a game developed and hosted by Germans. There are a lot of German or German-speaking players. English is the second common language (although only 2 languages are commonly used ).
Q28: Can you speak English? / Speak English please!!
A28: There are usually a couple of English speakers online at least. However, if you want everyone to speak English, that won't happen. So... use online translators if you have to. Don't ask for recommendations as there aren't any that deserve to be recommended. Providing English contents is seen as a service here... so be thankful :]
Also, if you have questions in English but there are no English speaker online, be patient and wait for a while before you ask again.
Q29: Do you know any good MMOPG?
A29: Hmmm... Industrie Tycoon??
Q30: Is this game good?
A30: No ... Seriously, you expect the active players here to tell you they are playing a bad game???? Wake up, dude
ok... next post, we will get back to some serious questions...
... to be continued...
Thanks, HAL
Continuing with the FAQ...
Q13: What products do (insert a building here) produce?
A13: You can find the information here; http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/buildings.html
Q14: What products do (insert a shop here) sell?
A14: See http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/products.html
Q15: What products can I produce?
A15: Look it up here, http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/researchlevel.html
The default research level is level 0.
Q16: Why didn't I sell? / Why didn't I produced certain products?
A16: There are several possibilities.
- First, has the wu passed? (refer to Q8 or Q10).
- Second, did you set you production for the buildings? If not, then they would be at standstill and nothing would be produced.
- Third, are you sure the goods were not produced and sold? Shops take products from products warehouse directly and sell automatically (even if the products were produced at the same wu -- the same time). Go visit the shop to double check (revenue).
- Fourth, are your raw materials send to raw material warehouse? Or more, do you have any raw material for the product?? Factories take materials from raw goods warehouse automatically. However, if no raw materials needed were present at the time for wu, then nothing would be produced.
- Fifth, your selling price may be too high if you can't sell in shops. (Please refer to Q19).
- Lastly, if the goods were not sold, are they in the raw goods warehouse? Shops only sell products in the product warehouse.
Q17: The overview says my buildings are not activated, why is that? And how to activate them?
A17: Buildings that are not activated mean they are at "standstill" for production. All you need to do is to change their production setting. If n in "n buildings not activated" differs from 0, you can click on n - and you will get a list with all buildings with 0 % productivity. There you can mark all (by clicking on their name, and they would change into deep blue color), and click on the button "change productivity. (quote from HAL )
Q18: How do I send goods to market or other players?
A18: Read the manual!!
Q19: How much should I sell (insert a end-product here) in (insert the corresponding shop here)?
A19: The max selling price in store = norm * (1.5 + ql/100).
Being the "max", it guarantees you won't sell if you exceed it, but not that you will definitely sell if you price lower than that. The formula is good when the demand>supply for a particular product (see SuDe for data). However, when supply>demand, you may want to adjust the price accordingly.
Q20: I am out of money and want to restart. How can I do that?
A20: In option, at the bottom, there is a reset button that you can use. However, you will lose all your possession in the game (including ql, if any) if you reset manually. It may not be a bad choice to start fresh if you are in financial trouble. Don't be afraid to do it as you are not the first, and will not be the last. You can also delete your account if you want to quit this game.
Q21: In the market, I see QL|RL for the products, what do they mean?
A21: RL (FL in german) stands for product and building research level. That is the research level required for you to manufacture the product. QL stands for quality level for that shipment. (see manual for details)
Q22: How do I research QL?
A22: You need to build a research facility. However, it is quite expensive to maintain, with an upkeep of at least 500,000 per wu without any research. It is recommended that you at least wait until you have a steady income of more than that amount to start your QL research.
Also note that the research level (RL) of the products you can research is correlated to the level of your research facility. The higher the RL of the product is, the higher the level of research faciltiy is required to research that product, and thus the higher the upkeep is.
Q23: Why didn't I make a profit?
A23: There are a number of factors affecting the profit.
- First, there is the construction/demolition. There is no depreciation policy in this game so the whole building cost is write off as expense. It could put a dent in your profit.
- Second, if you have purchased products from other players (from market, harbor, or accept offers), the cost (amount you paid) is record at once without matching to revenue.
- Third, maybe you revenue really is smaller than your maintenance and salaries.
If it is due to the first or second reason, don't worry too much. However, if it is because of the third reason, fix it. Keep in mind it is cash flow that matters, instead of profit. As long as you have cash, you are in, but if you don't, you go bankrupt.
...to be continued...
First off, the tutorial is good... but it is not showing up (under the default setting of threads posted within 100 days) and isn't even completed (as said by the tutor)... so thanks for bringing it up. Next, the faq maybe a little different as it will provide addition info to that tutorial and will not be a step by step walk through (read the manual or that thread for that!!). The questions from newbies may not be necessarily limited to that walk through. So far the Q&A have cover different info than the tutorial did. Thirdly, the faq page for in-game in portal is "under construction", so why not?
ok... with the blessing of the admin, I am starting a FAQ tread to guide new players (newbies ) in the game. Feel free to make comments and corrections to this treads (as I know the admins will... although I try not to give them any reason to :P). This thread is aimed to answer the frequently asked questions from newbies and will not cover as much (or as detailed, for that matter) as the manual does.
Starting with the basics...
Q1: What is this game about?
A1: This is an economy simulation. Players start and manage their own company and try to acheive their goals (highscores / research levels / profit ...etc., or just not to go bankrupt :P).
Q2: What should I start with?
A2: Start with reading the manual. You can find it here; http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/downloads.html .
Download and save it, as you will find it helpful in the future.
Q3: What is the "gfx-pack"?
A3: It is the graphics pack and it is currently in use. Download it, save it onto your computer and input the address you stored at into the designated place under the
"option" page in the game. It helps the game page load quicker by loading the graphics from your computer (from where you stored the gfx-pack).
Q4: Is there a way to make quick cash?
A4: You can try hacking into the server although that is illegal, unethnical, highly-inappropriate and you will definitely be banned after doing so (that is, you are highly discouraged to do that ). So, I guess the answer is NO.
You HAVE to put in some effort to start up well. Reading this thread is a good start.
Q5: How can I make money?
A5: The official answer is "build something and make something, then sell that something". A common suggestion is to build up a production chain (from raw materials to factories to shop). Product / production information can be found here; http://en.industrie-tycoon.de/products.html . You should also look into SuDe (Supply&Demand) before deciding on an industry. Please note that farms and vineyards only harvest once a year, which means you would not have any cash-in from them in the period before the first harvest while you have cash-out for maintenance and salaries.
Q6: How do I build buildings?
A6: Please read the manual!! ... or the "tutorial/walkthrough" thread below...
Q7: What is a good map?
A7: You would want plenty of resources and of a variety either if you have not decided on an industry / industries. If you have, however, it could be helpful to have more of those resources used in that industry / those industries that you plan on going into.
Q8: How often are goods produced?
A8: Most of the goods are produced every wu (which stands for world update). It is on the top of every hours (x:00) in real life. However, farms and vineyards only harvest once a year (12 wus).
Q9: Do the buildings produce even if I am not online?
A9: Yes, they do. However, you may go bankrupt if you don't have the cash or cash in-flow.
Q10: How often are goods sold in shops?
A10: Goods are sold in shops every wu (which stands for world update). It is on the top of every hours (x:00) in real life
Q11: How long can I be offline?
A11: You can be offline / inactive (not logging on) for 1440 hours, after which your account will be deleted.
Q12: Which industry is best to start with for newbies?
A12: Different players have different recommendations. It is up to you to decide which industry you want to go into. Some common recommendations include furniture and diy. Nevertheless, you should make use of the SuDe data to make your own choice.
... to be continued...
Dear Admins,
Can you guys include "READ THE MANUAL BEFORE STARTING" in the account activation email (not just "you can find the manual in..."). If you can, please do it in red, bold and supersized!!
Another thing is that we really need to set up the FAQ for in game (at least for the english part). It is not a ... eh... easy job (i don't want to say unpleasant ) to explain the game to newbies. I would even go as far as volunteering to write the Q&A although someone would have to translate it into German and put both versions on the site
Thanks.
P.S. to other players, next time you say "rtfm", say it in full... because some newbies don't even understand that
Thx bastel and morgi
Stdok has explained it to me in query. THX dok 
i was the one who brought up the ql research question...
it is not only whether one could carry it on to the next round, it is more about whether the speed round will continue after january. If the speed would close after january, then ql probably would not be worth it 
If you look at it again, i think it actually says "there are x buildings in upgrade and y are NOT activated"
Buildings that are not activated mean they are at "standstill" for production. All you need to do is going inside them and change their production setting (either through building page or click on the number y directly).
And again, READ THE MANUAL!!!!!!!!!
lol... ok, so...
It wouldn't make a difference whether you see them as US$, Euro, Japanese Yen, British Pounds, or whatever
